Questions and Answers with Kathleen Rourke
Kathleen E. Rourke previously worked as an editor at the Cornell Law School before her retirement in 2009 at which time she began studies for a Master’s degree in Pastoral Studies (MAPS). She uses that degree now to minister to people in times of grief, death, and loss. She has always believed in serving the communities to which she belongs and presently that takes the form of being a Disaster Spiritual Care volunteer for the Red Cross. She has been an American Red Cross volunteer for over 25 years, responding to both local and national disasters. Kathleen also serves on the Steering Committee for the Trumansburg Food Pantry as well as participating in numerous activities for her church. In her decade of working as a per diem chaplain for Hospicare, Kathleen has sat with countless people who are facing intense grief and loss.
We spoke with Kathleen on the 11th year anniversary of her working at Hospicare.
Q. Why do you do this work?
I’m called to it. I’ve walked with death beside me my entire life and have faced a lot of death with family and friends. I feel that it is important to share my experiences and what I have learned with others just starting the grief process. Most people find it hard to have a conversation about grief and loss and I try to give them the opening they need to start their own dialogue about their grief. When I am working with patients, I’m not there to present my views. I want to serve them from where they are and address their concerns. The goal is to comfort people. That’s the goal.
Q. What kind of questions do people have?
Well, they’re scared. It’s something new and unknown, death. So, we talk about that. I was taking the Eucharist to people at Beechtree this morning and today’s reading was about “In my Father’s house are many rooms.” This led to an interesting conversation about heaven. Generally, I try and encourage people to ask the questions they might not feel comfortable asking anyone else.
Q. Are all the Hospicare patients you minister to religious?
Not at all, no. I had one lady who only saw the chaplain because her kids wanted her to. She told me what she expected would happen when she died: “I’m just going to go out and become one with nature,” gesturing to the woods outside her window. So, we had a delightful conversation about becoming part of nature’s cycle.
Afterwards, her kids shared a poem called “The Ship.” You see a ship leaving, leaving, leaving, and everyone is waving goodbye. The ship looks smaller to us on the shore. But
what you don’t see is that on the opposite shore, the ship is getting larger. That’s an image that is a comforting thought to many.
Q. What about when people are agitated, wrestling with death?
I visited one guy and to get to his room I walked through a huge family gathering in the living room.
His wife of many decades was by his bedside as we talked. He was a former military soldier who had been in a lot of wars.
He was worried about what he did as a soldier, worried about the judgement he might face. I reminded him, “You just got done telling me about a homeless woman you let use a house of yours and other acts of charity.
You have this whole family downstairs that loves you. If you are kind to others and people love you and you return that love, that’s all matters.
God only cares about what is in your heart now.” In the Catholic tradition you have the last rites. A priest can offer these rites as a person is dying and part of the rite is confession. The idea is that anyone can have forgiveness for genuine remorse in their heart right up to the last moment.
Q. Is it unusual that you, as a woman, preside over Catholic rites like Eucharist?
I can distribute the Eucharist but not preside in a rite of the Catholic Church, only ordained deacons and priests can do that. But I feel called to be a deacon in my church. I didn’t want to get a ministry degree, which is why I think it’s a true calling from God, even if my church does not recognize that call. I have no regrets as I have found great joy in talking with people about faith. While my church does not presently accept women as deacons, before he died Pope Francis put the question of women’s roles in the church, including serving as deacons, back on the table for discussion. I don’t know what Pope Leo is going to do but I think the Holy Spirit is flapping as hard it can to make it happen. Meanwhile, I do what I can to serve people in my church and community.
Q. You went to Ministry School!
I got the same degree as the guys in the deacon program, sharing classes with them. While I am not allowed have an official role in my church, I do as much as I can to minister to people. It used to be that people at Beechtree would say, “What do we call you?” Some would automatically call me “sister” or “father.” I simply respond, “Call me Kathleen.” I just do what God wants of me and occasionally plead the case for women deacons in a letter to the pope. I haven’t decided yet if I will write to Pope Leo but I am considering it.
Q. Tell us about your work with the Red Cross at Ground Zero.
It was scary to fly into NYCity after the flight ban was lifted. That day, there was a plane crash in Queens and so I was reassigned to work at the HQ response to that crash. As Red
Cross workers, we had full passes to go everywhere and in our free time we would visit with responders during their breaks from working in what they called “Ground Hero.”
One such place was this little church right next to ruins of the towers. The tiny church had miraculously survived. I walked out the back door into the church cemetery. There was trash in the trees overhead and big spotlights pointing down onto what was left of the Twin Towers. I went twice, the second time getting right to the edge of the pit. One guy called it looking into the jaws of hell. The enormity of the destruction was incomprehensible, much different from what you see on TV (which made it all look like just a movie set). I thought about how the people buried in the church cemetery had probably died quietly in bed, surrounded by their families, unlike the people in the towers who died horribly.
What can each of us learn from this? We need to be prepared for whatever comes in the next second, hour, day, or year. We need to realize that evil is equally countered by good; but only if you and I remember look for the latter in the quiet corners of life. We need to believe that miracles can and will happen no matter how bad things appear at first glance. Everyone has to contribute goodness if you want goodness to prevail. That is my hope and my wish.
Q. What do you tell people who are worried that when they die, their loved ones will be lost without them?
The spark that makes you unique and makes them love you, survives. It is in them. And every time they mention your name, you are felt. As long as their memories and their stories of you remain, you are still here. Energy may be transformed but always continues. Think of that ship on the horizon, going and yet coming.